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Derek and Chris Argue in a Thread of Politicis and Social Issuesand for me to understand more about the US constitution


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#21 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:05 PM

Well universal healthcare isnt an exclusively good or bad thing. Like stretts says, its going good in Australia, but in Canada its very inefficient. Its just a question of how well the government will execute it, whether the ends justify the means (means being cost), and whether there are other issues that need attending to first.

This is my personal opinion, judging by the post office, and just our government in general, we will not be able to execute universal healthcare efficiently. At a time when we have deficits and debt, the ends don't justify the means because healthcare is a privilege not a right. Finally, there are definitely issues that need the money first i.e. the infrastructure, the education system, all the foreign wars, and the freakin economy

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#22 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:07 PM

Who determines the privelage of health care though? Plenty of people in America im sure are born into poverty/low income lives - does this determine the privelage to get healthcare?

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#23 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:14 PM

View Poststretts, on 19 April 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:

Who determines the privelage of health care though? Plenty of people in America im sure are born into poverty/low income lives - does this determine the privelage to get healthcare?

ya it does, at least while they are with their parents. After that, that individual person will determine if they get that privelage. If you work hard in school when you are young, you can succeed and gain that privelage (and i know thats a generalization thats not ALWAYS true). Unfortunately, we are a world of classes, this is natural and unavoidable, and the upper classes will have things that the lower classes don't. Just be thankful that we live in western countries where there is class mobility

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#24 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:22 PM

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After that, that individual person will determine if they get that privelage

And you are happy to accept that pockets of society are margenalised and oppressed, which makes it extremely difficult to succeed and gain that privelage?

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Unfortunately, we are a world of classes, this is natural and unavoidable, and the upper classes will have things that the lower classes don't

Is it unavoidable? or has it been created by the powerful through the ruse and glorification of capitalism?

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#25 kelso

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:55 PM

Guns...its an interesting one. I don't think they should be as easy to get as they are, I don't think making the average person able to conceal/carry saves any lives or stops any conflicts - in fact if you aren't a stupid gun owner, you know that carrying a weapon makes you a TARGET. I think gun control needs tightening in a very big way.

That said, I conceal carry half the time and take my gun to work as a part owner of a very small business with no security or loss recovery methods. I have a tactical shotgun as well at home and shoot my .40 Glock at least once a month because I LOVE guns. The mechanical nature of them is absolutely enthralling to me.

I don't believe health care is a privilege, that seems completely out of touch if you are a citizen of a modern society who is willing to follow the laws and pay your taxes. If you live somewhere you are depending on their security and infrastructure, it seems like health care shouldn't be a "for profit" industry. The thing about "converting" our health care system has already been said - it can't be done. Its a total tear down and rebuild. The billing and coding system, the networking, the laws and procedures, all out the window.

I don't know if universal health care is the answer, I want to think it is because I've been in the situation with a young family and no money and no insurance. I've been under insured and had to have a surgery done, took 5 years and about 15 grand to pay for my knee. This current system is completely broken and something has to happen - vouchers and health savings accounts are a joke. I think that people should be made to pay the needed taxes(the level depending on income brackets) in order to get universal health care. The dated insurance policies and certain greedy unions are just a few of the things that are making it impossible to manufacture things in this country. How is that unfair or unconstitutional? People pay taxes for other said municipalities, why not pay to be able to take your child to the E.R. without fear of walking out with a $2,000 billing?(also happened to me).

HA! Classes. Capitalism was created before a REAL global economy existed. Its completely possible to work hard and be more successful in a moderately socialistic economy. Capitalism only saves her nicest rewards for those who already have wealth. With a disappearing middle class we here in the states are faced with the ultra rich exporting jobs and a ballooning poverty level. Soon we'll have an aristocracy, even worse than the current one and there isn't going to be any way for the economy to make money. Its going in this all import no export direction and it just makes the whole nation more and more poor. Its completely apparent by the way Congress cannot pass a tax on the ultra wealthy so they are paying only %25...the same amount as a self employed person making under 40G a year.
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#26 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:01 PM

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And you are happy to accept that pockets of society are margenalised and oppressed, which makes it extremely difficult to succeed and gain that privelage?

Im happy in the fact that capitalism rewards the intelligent, creative, and talented, more so than any other system. Of course this isn't always true and stupid people are rich, while smart, diligent people aren't so lucky. Thats just it though, so much of success depends on luck that we could never have a perfectly merit based system, but capitalism comes close.

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Is it unavoidable? or has it been created by the powerful through the ruse and glorification of capitalism?

Yes it is absolutely unavoidable. By biological predisposition through thousands of years of natural selection, we are programed to compete with our fellow humans for power. We cannot have a system without classes because as long as there is one person with intelligence, or some other positive trait, he/she will gain an edge over others and thus be above them and create a class. This argument would of course be invalid if those intelligent people curbed there natural urges for the greater ideal of a classless society and did not inflict their influence on the people. Yet this cannot happen because universal ideals inherently do not exist (i am a sartrean existentialist) and thus people cannot create a classless society

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#27 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:09 PM

I'm not for a classless society, rather a society that space between the classes is much less pronounced. The point Kelso makes in his last paragraph there is along the lines of my thoughts on the issue.

And hey, Kelso, havnt seen you for a while

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#28 wax wings

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:19 PM

View PostTheCityMayor, on 19 April 2011 - 09:14 PM, said:

If you work hard in school when you are young, you can succeed and gain that privilege.

I understand that this is the ideal of a capitalist society, but a.) our society isn't truly capitalist and b.) it flat out doesn't happen. You can't pull on bootstraps that you don't have.

In terms of health care, the fact that the heads of insurance companies in other countries laugh in disbelief when you ask them "would you consider running your company as a for-profit company?" scares me. Our system is so backwards.

#29 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:26 PM

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HA! Classes. Capitalism was created before a REAL global economy existed. Its completely possible to work hard and be more successful in a moderately socialistic economy. Capitalism only saves her nicest rewards for those who already have wealth. With a disappearing middle class we here in the states are faced with the ultra rich exporting jobs and a ballooning poverty level. Soon we'll have an aristocracy, even worse than the current one and there isn't going to be any way for the economy to make money. Its going in this all import no export direction and it just makes the whole nation more and more poor. Its completely apparent by the way Congress cannot pass a tax on the ultra wealthy so they are paying only %25...the same amount as a self employed person making under 40G a year.

uh.. were not talking about pure capitalism, thats only leads to shit. But pure socialism is shit too, a balance is key and thats what we have now. And Really? Capitalism rewards the people who already have wealth because they are intelligent enough to use it. Can you blame corporations for exporting their manufacturing? why would they produce in the US when its cheaper elsewhere. It easy to complain about it, but your reaping the benefits every time you buy a 3$ shirt at Khol's. We've always had an aristocracy and good luck changing that, and if you knew econ. you'd know that an oligopoly is really the only viable free market structure that can make a long term profit. Taxing the wealth would even worse for the economy cause there the ones who make all the freakin jobs. Why should the rich pay a higher percentage than everyone else because they succeeded? its all percentages! taxing something creates less demand for it, and if you tax success people arent gonna want to expand business and succeed. All the taxes and EPA b.s is killing my uncles company thats already in a recession.

p.s. 40% of americans don't pay any taxes at all, tell me how thats fair

p.p.s im lovin' this thread stretts, i'm always ready for an intellectual discussion with someone of a different perspective. With my family i'm the liberal, on here im the conservative, i love it Posted Image

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#30 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:29 PM

I wouldnt be too happy with the current system, the financial sector has also lost countelss middle class jobs through its risky trading and promotion of unviable housing loans

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p.p.s im lovin' this thread stretts, i;m always ready for an intellectual with someone of a different perspective. With my family i'm the liberal, on here in the conservative, i love it

The forum needs a little bit of conjecture every now and then :P

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#31 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:36 PM

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I wouldnt be too happy with the current system, the financial sector has also lost countelss middle class jobs through its risky trading and promotion of unviable housing loans

Ya, and it makes me mad none of those bastards are goin to jail, but this is where the balance part of regulated capitalism comes into play. theres a place for government regulation and making it illegal to be a cheating wall street bastard is a place for it. But we should bash rich people cuzz of a couple of assholes

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#32 wax wings

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:39 PM

View PostTheCityMayor, on 19 April 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

p.s. 40% of americans the richest corporations in america don't pay any taxes at all, tell me how that's fair
fixed.

#33 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:43 PM

I dont know about it being just a couple of assholes, whole corporations knew what they were doing and destroyed the lives of thousands (if not millions worldwide).

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#34 uvtbass

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:43 PM

Wow, everyone, I'm happy to say I was wrong! What a good conversation. I'll admit I'm pretty pessimistic about productive dialog in the US when it comes to things like guns, health care, the division of wealth, access to opportunity, and just about anything else of substance. Our politicians are a big part of the problem, and so is the media, but I do believe people can and should still make their own choices. Anyway, thanks LATR peoples, for sharing and listening!

#35 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:47 PM

View Postwax wings, on 19 April 2011 - 10:39 PM, said:

View PostTheCityMayor, on 19 April 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

p.s. 40% of americans the richest corporations in america don't pay any taxes at all, tell me how that's fair
fixed.

trololol haha ya its all bullshit they ALL should pay some taxes (Corporations and poorer people both), but if you think about it those companies are at least paying millions to economists and lawyers to not pay taxes and that money goes back into the economy, so its not all bad. When companies expenses are less, it costs less to buy things. More taxes on big companies make everything more expensive

i think we should have a flat tax, 10-15%, across the board.

Quote

Wow, everyone, I'm happy to say I was wrong! What a good conversation. I'll admit I'm pretty pessimistic about productive dialog in the US when it comes to things like guns, health care, the division of wealth, access to opportunity, and just about anything else of substance. Our politicians are a big part of the problem, and so is the media, but I do believe people can and should still make their own choices. Anyway, thanks LATR peoples, for sharing and listening!

Thats what i was thinking! get out of my mind uvtbass!

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I dont know about it being just a couple of assholes, whole corporations knew what they were doing and destroyed the lives of thousands (if not millions worldwide).

it wasnt whole corporations, just the assholes at the top

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#36 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:48 PM

Would everyone here agree that the 2012 election is more important than the previous one?

Also, if I were a US citizen i would vote for Trump for the lulz




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#37 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:51 PM

becasue were on thaat topic now, you'll enjoy this

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#38 stretts

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:56 PM

haha wonderful

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#39 Curtis

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:00 PM

The other day my uncles tried to tell me shed be better than obama. i LoLed

That is the level of conservativism in my family, they love Palin, Trump and worship Foxnews. I speak for my genes when i say im embarassed

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#40 uvtbass

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:05 PM

Yeah I have to be REALLY careful talking politics (and yikes, religion) with my family. Whew way to start a war!

And stretts if I'm starting to think like you, I must be doing something not too screwed up!




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